Apparently if you put out a casting call for horse riders in New Zealand you will mostly get young women. So most of the Rohirrim have fake beards. Look closely at Doughnut for example.
Why did you deny yourself the pleasure of saying “Gothmog?”
Also, the two notes that constitute the horn blast… I really need a musicologist to explain why that particular interval is so stirring. It’s the same two notes that Queen play right before Vultan and the Hawkmen attack the war rocket Ajax in Flash Gordon. (0:48 if you don’t believe me.)
Horns rely on the overtone series to change notes. It’s one of the most fundamental and ancient organizing properties of sound/music—basically doubling and tripling frequencies and so on. The rising perfect fifth (first and second overtones) is incredibly effective here (both LotR and Flash Gordon) for four main reasons:
1) it’s a pleasing harmony, easily neurologically processed (dissonant notes overlap in your cochlea and take more work for your brain to understand), and has some lovely mathematical proportions between the frequencies.
2) it’s a historically primal sound, much of the earliest harmonies were fifths
3) a powerful cultural association of that timbre and interval with battle and heroism
And 4) it is not clear whether we are in a major or a minor key. Not knowing if we get a happy or a sad ending makes the heroism extra epic
So basically you take a primal, mathematically beautiful sound and mix it in with centuries of heroic tradition, it’s hard not to want to grab your spear and charge!
I loved the silliness! I read somewhere that most of the extras in this scene were women because they couldn’t find nearly enough male riders. Did you notice any obvious fake beards etc when you watched it frame by frame?
I didn't notice it until someone said something in these comments, and then I went back and sure enough. Looks like Doughnut was a woman and possibly the one that couldn't stop grinning. But it's hard to say, the costume work is well done.
Well, thank you! And thank you for tossing such a fabulous question my way, I was so excited when I saw it...always good to find a use for those eight years of higher ed!
Most of what I write is in the context of liturgical music (I'm a Episcopal music minister and I use Substack to connect with parishioners to share about our music), which isn't necessarily everybody's cup of tea. That said, I've had several new subscribers from this comment so maybe I should start something on the psychology of music, since there seems to be some interest there!
I'm came here to yell SHUT UP SHUT UP to the inevitable killjoy who points out that cavalry is ineffective against heavy infantry, but it seems he's not here so I said it instead.
If I were Théoden I'd send a small scouting party over the ridge to assess the orc forces and their positions beforehand, then position my three groups behind the ridge and out of sight of the orcs before starting the charge from behind the ridge.
Not line up on the ridge in plain sight, give a long speech, and let the orcs have plenty of time to reposition their archers and pikemen to the rear.
I love the way you’re thinking, but I gotta say I think 75% of a cavalry charge has got to be the psyop of it. Loud af wall of meat and metal flying at you… sounds like a lot to deal with even if you’re positioned as strategically as possible. It probably shakes the ground. The goal is to get them to crap their pants and run away. A peacocking flex on the hillside might accomplish that better than being sneaky would.
Oh my god, yes. This is the greatest movie battle of all time. I’ve watched this film annually since its release, and watching this scene recently after taking a gummy - there’s no feeling like it. The horn. The charge. Éomer. I was sobbing!!!!
A hugely amusing read on one of the greatest scenes in one of the greatest films ever made. "Courage, Merry. Courage for our friends..." Not merely absolutely jaw-dropping, but also powerfully moving.
"I tend to roll my eyes when cinephiles bemoan how streamers have eroded film as an art form, but when I look at this shot, they have a point." - That would be me, and yes we bloody well do have a point. :)
The Lord of the Rings set an extremely high bar, but yes, The Hobbit was a seriously over egged pudding that made too many unnecessary departures from the text. The best bits were those that stuck to the book (eg riddles with Gollum, conversations with Smaug, etc).
But that has no bearing on my streaming opinions which are well documented elsewhere. I’m an old school, cinema first, dyed in the wool cineaste. If I see a film I like in cinemas, I’ll pick up a physical copy. That’s the way I like it. And that’s a hill I will die on.
This same scene in the book is also epic. Different in many ways, but absolutely epic. This was the scene I most looked forward to in the movie, and it delivered. If you haven't read it, you should - even if you lack the patience to read all three books, just read those few pages, you'll be glad you did.
Watching the Return of The King right now, the battle at Pelennor is about to start, Theoden just gave his rousing speach about death.
The previous scenes makes it clear it's night, but just before sunrise, when the armies of Mordor breaches the walls, and Denethor goes mad and tries to burn himself and his son Faramir alive. Gandalf have a standoff with the Witchking of Angmar and suddenly the horns of Rohan sounds, the Witchking gets preoccupied with the arrival of the Rohirrim and the fact it's now DAWN!
The mustered Rohirrim appears with the rising sun in their backs because it is now sunrise, dawn, in the east. Exactly the direction where Rohirrim comes from to aid the city. Very faithful to the book indeed!
The movie doesn't explicitly explain it, but it follows the book pretty well. Thus it's understood the time isn't sunset. The battle goes on the entire day, and it's not getting dark...
Sunrise, in the books. The Rohirrim sneak past a blocking army at night by going through Drudan forest, arriving at Minas Tirith at first light. The sun’s at their backs because the final spur of the White Mountains extends a bit to the east of Minas Tirith, so the Rohirrim have to loop around.
Apparently if you put out a casting call for horse riders in New Zealand you will mostly get young women. So most of the Rohirrim have fake beards. Look closely at Doughnut for example.
Holy crap, you're right! Wow, great comment.
It's even more obvious when the Three meet Rohirrim for the first time.
One of the "Rohirrim" slept with Aragorn, so the story goes.
🤣🤣🤣
Are there any women here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRnyfVgQbXk
Why did you deny yourself the pleasure of saying “Gothmog?”
Also, the two notes that constitute the horn blast… I really need a musicologist to explain why that particular interval is so stirring. It’s the same two notes that Queen play right before Vultan and the Hawkmen attack the war rocket Ajax in Flash Gordon. (0:48 if you don’t believe me.)
https://youtu.be/UVcAFtQ-bAQ?si=1PPjVI_y67zkgLAC
Not a musicologist, but music therapist here!
Horns rely on the overtone series to change notes. It’s one of the most fundamental and ancient organizing properties of sound/music—basically doubling and tripling frequencies and so on. The rising perfect fifth (first and second overtones) is incredibly effective here (both LotR and Flash Gordon) for four main reasons:
1) it’s a pleasing harmony, easily neurologically processed (dissonant notes overlap in your cochlea and take more work for your brain to understand), and has some lovely mathematical proportions between the frequencies.
2) it’s a historically primal sound, much of the earliest harmonies were fifths
3) a powerful cultural association of that timbre and interval with battle and heroism
And 4) it is not clear whether we are in a major or a minor key. Not knowing if we get a happy or a sad ending makes the heroism extra epic
So basically you take a primal, mathematically beautiful sound and mix it in with centuries of heroic tradition, it’s hard not to want to grab your spear and charge!
Incredible comment! Thanks for bringing some legitimacy to my silliness. :D
I loved the silliness! I read somewhere that most of the extras in this scene were women because they couldn’t find nearly enough male riders. Did you notice any obvious fake beards etc when you watched it frame by frame?
I didn't notice it until someone said something in these comments, and then I went back and sure enough. Looks like Doughnut was a woman and possibly the one that couldn't stop grinning. But it's hard to say, the costume work is well done.
That’s what I heard from the folks who were there (did the LOTR tour in NZ just before COVID).
You just got a follow from me
Well, thank you! And thank you for tossing such a fabulous question my way, I was so excited when I saw it...always good to find a use for those eight years of higher ed!
Most of what I write is in the context of liturgical music (I'm a Episcopal music minister and I use Substack to connect with parishioners to share about our music), which isn't necessarily everybody's cup of tea. That said, I've had several new subscribers from this comment so maybe I should start something on the psychology of music, since there seems to be some interest there!
Alas, Gothmog isn't part of the scene 😭
You're totally about Flash Gordon! Great call.
Gothmog is potato face!
Lmao for some reason I was thinking of Grond when you said that
I'm came here to yell SHUT UP SHUT UP to the inevitable killjoy who points out that cavalry is ineffective against heavy infantry, but it seems he's not here so I said it instead.
If I were Théoden I'd send a small scouting party over the ridge to assess the orc forces and their positions beforehand, then position my three groups behind the ridge and out of sight of the orcs before starting the charge from behind the ridge.
Not line up on the ridge in plain sight, give a long speech, and let the orcs have plenty of time to reposition their archers and pikemen to the rear.
Sensible, but far less epic!
I love the way you’re thinking, but I gotta say I think 75% of a cavalry charge has got to be the psyop of it. Loud af wall of meat and metal flying at you… sounds like a lot to deal with even if you’re positioned as strategically as possible. It probably shakes the ground. The goal is to get them to crap their pants and run away. A peacocking flex on the hillside might accomplish that better than being sneaky would.
Oh my god, yes. This is the greatest movie battle of all time. I’ve watched this film annually since its release, and watching this scene recently after taking a gummy - there’s no feeling like it. The horn. The charge. Éomer. I was sobbing!!!!
How can you not be moved by this scene? It's impossible. Goosebumps every time.
Absolutely superb 👌
A hugely amusing read on one of the greatest scenes in one of the greatest films ever made. "Courage, Merry. Courage for our friends..." Not merely absolutely jaw-dropping, but also powerfully moving.
The horses spend effort to regain the kinetic energy lost by orc running overing.
This article made me wheeze aloud. It's like mystery science theater except done out of pure love.
"I tend to roll my eyes when cinephiles bemoan how streamers have eroded film as an art form, but when I look at this shot, they have a point." - That would be me, and yes we bloody well do have a point. :)
Well wtf happened in the hobbit then? That wasn’t for streaming and was still poor by lotr standards
The Lord of the Rings set an extremely high bar, but yes, The Hobbit was a seriously over egged pudding that made too many unnecessary departures from the text. The best bits were those that stuck to the book (eg riddles with Gollum, conversations with Smaug, etc).
But that has no bearing on my streaming opinions which are well documented elsewhere. I’m an old school, cinema first, dyed in the wool cineaste. If I see a film I like in cinemas, I’ll pick up a physical copy. That’s the way I like it. And that’s a hill I will die on.
The Hobbit trilogy is oversaturated with CGI. LOTR used CGI to enhance practical effects, and it's absolutely beautiful.
Completely agreed. :)
This same scene in the book is also epic. Different in many ways, but absolutely epic. This was the scene I most looked forward to in the movie, and it delivered. If you haven't read it, you should - even if you lack the patience to read all three books, just read those few pages, you'll be glad you did.
This is hilariously meticulous!
Man, I love when the horns be horning.
Also, amazing find with Blind Justice! 😄
🤣Isn't the sun supposed to be rising???
At Helm's Deep, yes. But not here. Rohan is West of Gondor.
The Rohirrim circumvented the besieging forces from Mordor on their way to Minas Tirith and attacked them in the rear, from the north east.
It was impossible to attack from the west, because of that big mountain range on which the city is built.
The movie doesn't care about accuracy when it gets in the way of epic thematic shots. It's not clear what direction they're coming from.
I beg to differ!
Watching the Return of The King right now, the battle at Pelennor is about to start, Theoden just gave his rousing speach about death.
The previous scenes makes it clear it's night, but just before sunrise, when the armies of Mordor breaches the walls, and Denethor goes mad and tries to burn himself and his son Faramir alive. Gandalf have a standoff with the Witchking of Angmar and suddenly the horns of Rohan sounds, the Witchking gets preoccupied with the arrival of the Rohirrim and the fact it's now DAWN!
The mustered Rohirrim appears with the rising sun in their backs because it is now sunrise, dawn, in the east. Exactly the direction where Rohirrim comes from to aid the city. Very faithful to the book indeed!
The movie doesn't explicitly explain it, but it follows the book pretty well. Thus it's understood the time isn't sunset. The battle goes on the entire day, and it's not getting dark...
This is brilliant. I’m not usually one for scene by scene breakdowns but this one was very well done. And the quips 🤣
Who knew there was so much hilarity baked into such an epic moment? 😃
I sure didn’t. Never watching that scene the same way again. 🤣
Superb scene. I remember almost falling off my seat with excitement in the theatre.
Though....isn't the sun coming UP, not setting?
I honestly always assumed it was the West and thus sunset. I'm probably wrong lol
Sunrise, in the books. The Rohirrim sneak past a blocking army at night by going through Drudan forest, arriving at Minas Tirith at first light. The sun’s at their backs because the final spur of the White Mountains extends a bit to the east of Minas Tirith, so the Rohirrim have to loop around.